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Answers to questions you may have been afraid to ask!

An opportunity to explore the spiritual in a manner that all may come together and share.


Aug 9, 2008

A Bible verse which some Christians hate?  How can that be?

Well, to begin with, it might well be the most well-corroborated verse in the Christians' entire Bible!  It's just about verbatim in three of the four gospels, and it makes reference back to the Old Testament.

If you read just a wee bit more than the single verse, you will see that this was the verse which Yeshua uttered which got him into really big, bad doo-doo!  He might have irritated and angered the powers-that-were in his day until then.  But that was what caused them to decide that he had to go!

There is a definition of ministry which goes: "comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable."  We will do well to remember that in the light of what this verse tells us.

Depending on who you are, it is either a promise, or it is a threat.  It is either a reassurance which gives you comfort, or it is so scary that it is spine-chilling.

Many have avoided the subject, but many more simply try to dodge the thought that it might still be an issue. 

The act of repeating the same action and expecting different results is a popular definition of insanity.  By that definition, an establishment which has the same issues about itself as the establishment which it replaced but does not expect to be replaced - by that definition that establishment is insane!  But that is the aspect of it that is a threat to many.

And the promise?  There might be something there that could be the clue to build something more wonderful that we can imagine!

Blessed Be!

Aidan Odinson
almost sixteen years ago

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I have seen many react toward that verse as I described, particularly those who tried to stop a particular ministry from happening - not mine, but another which I see is flourishing beyond even the dreams of those who founded it.

Do not limit yourself, not even to the limited descriptions I give. You must still open your own doors!

White Raven
almost sixteen years ago

Hi Aidan, not sure what you mean by \'an Establishment\' there are currently over 38000 Christian denominations...hardly a monolithic organization. Christendom as a concept does seem alive and well in some parts of America, but in Canada and Europe and elsewhere, it is a free market :)

The interpretation I have always heard of this verse is that Jesus is the stone that was rejected by institutionalized religion. Using your logic, a Christian would be afraid that the Pagans would accept Jesus while the Church Institution rejects him, so the church will fall some day and a new Christianity made of pagans will rise? To me your interpretation doesn\'t make sense because it is a Christ centered verse not a church/institution centered verse. Christianity is about believing in Jesus not the Church, and Christians believe he is eternal and will triumph someday.

I believe you grew up Anglican, while I grew up Christian Reformed, so as you can see, we grew up with very different interpretations of this verse, hence my first comment about there being a lot of different denominations. I don\'t think I have heard your interpretation before, so I don\'t think it is a widely held opinion.

And I don\'t think using the word Hate is effective, in fact, it may be releasing bad energies into the universe. Maybe you should change it to h-8..but maybe the Kabbalists will get a bit nervous :)

Aidan Odinson
almost sixteen years ago

I don\'t think h-8 would be effective, and I\'m not sure that I or any other who pursues the Kabbalah would get nervous about it. I see it as more of a euphemism, and I try to avoid euphemism.

I\'m sure there are at least 38,000 Christian denominations in the US alone, and each one of them qualifies as a religious establishment in the eyes of their followers. In that, like in so many other ways, much difference is made based on perspective, viewpoint, and experience.

I was not raised an Anglican, I was raised a Methodist. I would have become a catholic instead of an Anglican except that the Catholics\' religious establishment is too much of this world. But I did want to find a god who did more than sit \"up there\" and keep score on me. Unfortunately, the Anglicans have had their church hijacked from them. In the meantime, I have explored many other paths including Buddhism (Thervadin and Jodo Shinshu) and a few others to get to where I am. And it was thanks to a Wiccan high priest who also taught Kabbalah that I found the way to bring it all together.

What you think I am saying would only be valid from a prespective that only includes the canonical Bible as followed by Protestants. Add the apocryphal writings, and it takes on a different perspective. Add to it the other paths, and it takes on a dimension which would strike fear in the hearts of anyone who wants to think that their path is the only valid path.

Bear in mind that Yeshua also said that he had sheep which were not of that fold. Look at Mithras, Krishna, Baldur, Dylan and so many other deities who died - but with a promise to return. And in that, I am not saying what is so much as what I will not close my door to.

And we have a principle which has repeated itself again and again. The United States itself was founded by, to a great extent, descendants of people who the political and religious establishments in Europe wanted to be rid of!

White Raven
almost sixteen years ago

Ah....but you only quoted three texts from the canonical bible as the subject of your pod, so this is the playing field that we were working from :) Once you include Gnostic texts or other traditions, you are no longer discussing traditional Christianity, which was \'the establishment\' that you were referring to.

In the pod you said that those particular canonical texts are hated by some Christians,and I maintain that they do not inspire fear in Christians. There is no mention in the canonical bible that Jesus will come back in any other form other than Jesus nor that he will sweep away the church. The bible ends with the book of Revelation, where he and the Christian church triumph over the powers of evil. And they are not concerned with Mithras or Krishna, or the Gospel of Thomas, they are concerned with the canonical Jesus - the others are not even on their radar. People who believe those texts are literalists.

The U.S. and its founders may be a stone that the builders (Europeans) rejected, but this is a larger social pattern you are referring to. If you had said, there is a common theme in the world, that the rejected rise to power and establishments fall away, and power hungry individuals who use a religion or a political ideology to maintain power are afraid of this, then I would have no quibble. But you singled out Christians as \'hating\' a particular verse in the bible, as though they know that they are displeasing to Jesus, because they believe in the bible yet and knowingly continue to sin.

I believe you are referring to a different breed of people and the common denominator is power hungry, not faith filled. I also believe that Christians still consider \'the establishment\' to be the world, the world of greed, might makes right etc. Remember, in the bible, Satan says to Jesus that he can give Jesus the whole world if he worships Satan, so this is where they are coming from....they are not in charge, they are under attack. Their perception, not ours is their reality.